Thank you to Christina Baldwin and Moze Crozier for sharing their ABC Listen podcast interview.
Sick of meetings? Try this instead...
“If we do this, it could profoundly change how we are together.”
Is your day full of meetings leaving you tired and working late just to get everything done? Surely there must be a better way...
In this episode, Lisa Leong finds out how we can do meetings better and looks at one technique called The Circle Way, with guests Christina Baldwin, co-author of The Circle Way and Michelle ‘Moze’ Crozier, Circle Way facilitator.
Listen to the 25 minute episode through ABC Listen, on Apple Podcasts, or on Spotify.
A written transcript is available below.
Christina Baldwin:
My experience is that many meetings are already set and that the leadership has pretty much decided what they're going to do. Then people checkout of meetings and they resent them and they wish they could stay at their own desk and, "Get something done."
Lisa Leong:
Oh yes, too often meetings taking up too much of your day, leaving you feeling drained and having to stay back late to get your work done. But is there a better way?
Moze Crozier:
Changing the physical structure changes the way we relate to each other.
Christina Baldwin:
The circle made us into social beings.
Lisa Leong:
Hello, I'm Lisa Leong, and in this episode of This Working Life, I'm going to find out how we can do meetings better, how we can curate them, feel energized from them, and create a leader in every chair. One technique to do this is called The Circle Way, and it hails from this woman.
Christina Baldwin:
I say sometimes if you want to go fast, just go alone. But if you want to go far, go together. This is Christina Baldwin and I am the co-author of The Circle Way with Ann Linnea.
Lisa Leong:
And you've got a great motto, which you put in your book, change the chairs and change the world.
Christina Baldwin:
Yes. And so even if you're still in a table, even if you're still at a rectangular table, you can change the attitude that comes into the chairs. But what we have found is walking into a conference room, if we pull the chairs away from the big old table and put them in a circle off to the side, we can lay the purpose of the meeting literally in the center. And we've taken things like flip chart paper and said, why is everyone in the room now? What is supposed to be accomplished? And as people dump that content into the middle, we get a clear intention and say, okay, now every one of you is a spoke on a bicycle wheel and you attach from where you're seated to that purpose and now let's start the meeting.
Lisa Leong:
Let's look at how the practice came about for you. So can you take me back to 1991 and you observed how people felt when they were communicating in a circle. Tell us about what inspired you to keep on searching for meaning in this circle?
Christina Baldwin:
What was happening to us when Ann Linnea and I first met and started teaching together, we started very much outside the business realm and we were doing weekend retreats for women that combined a sense of earth activism and journal writing so that we wanted women to tap into some kind of inner resource, but then take that strength and go do something. So as we were doing that and sitting in circle and talking and passing a talking piece, I mean it was very sort of early new age. But we began noticing that there was an energy that evolved in those groups that we were not really facilitating. It was as though that experience was facilitating us. And at the end of a weekend, women would say I had no idea when I showed up here on Friday night that this is where I would be on Sunday noon.
And so we began going, well, what is it? Because it happened over and over again, so it's not particular to one group of women or even our leadership style. So we began to ask the question, maybe it's the circle. Maybe this shape is somehow archival to who we are and that it energizes us. So what if we use the circle intentionally instead of accidentally? And so we began building the social infrastructure for being together in ways that work. And that's the circle.
Lisa Leong:
And if you had to describe The Circle Way, what is it in essence, Christina?
Christina Baldwin:
It's a shift into participation around everything that needs to get done. And that I say sometimes, if you want to go fast, just go alone. But if you want to go far, go together. And so there are things that you need to go fast in a business day or in an organization and you can just say to someone, okay, you do that, you're on it, I don't need to know. But there are all these other things that really need the stability of a whole team understanding where they're going, of a project group, of people breaking out into their areas of expertise. And we often went into organizations at kind of the upper management level to teach them to collaborate, like between department heads. And then as they began to realize how rich that was they turned it back into their departments.
And pretty soon the administrative, the office staff would be coming to the boss and saying, we want that. We want in the secretarial pool, in the IT department, we want some of that. Because they could feel the whole energy shift and they could also feel the empowerment. And they were no longer just the working horses that had to do whatever somebody said. You have a leader in a team, you'll have a projects leader, and you hopefully have a leader who is developed enough that they can say, here's my idea and I want to put it in the center of the table, and then I want to hear from everyone, what do you think of it? Let's make it our idea. And so once people get confident that they really can put their voice out there, amazing synergy begins to happen.
Lisa Leong:
Okay. So how does it work exactly? Well, the first step is to set the meeting's intention, then it's time to check-in. You can do this by asking these questions, why are you here? What do you want to contribute or learn? And what do you want from this meeting? For over two decades, The Circle Way has been used around the world from Canada to the US, to Europe, South Africa, New Zealand, and here in Australia.
Moze Crozier:
Okay, so my name is Moze Crozier. I do actually have a real name. It's Michelle, but I like the informality of Moze and many people know me as Moze. So it's a childhood name. My full title at the moment is I'm head of service delivery in a disability organization.
Lisa Leong:
Moze, if I may call you that.
Moze Crozier:
Please.
Lisa Leong:
Can you tell me about your first experience with The Circle Way?
Moze Crozier:
So I was introduced to Circle way through the Art of Hosting and Harvesting Conversations That Matter community. It's a bit of a mouthful, isn't it? So Art of Hosting for short. So that community has Circle as a foundation practice, foundation principles, and a foundation pattern for the work of Art of Hosting. So that's where I first came across it back in 2012.
Lisa Leong:
And what resonated with you about The Circle Way at that time?
Moze Crozier:
I think the key aspect for me that really hits home is that by changing the physical structure, and that is not the whole story, but changing the physical structure changes the way we relate to each other. And it can be a little bit vulnerable, but the juice is in that vulnerability. So it changes the way we see each other and the way we communicate.
Lisa Leong:
Can you give me an example of that from your own experience?
Moze Crozier:
Oh gosh, now that's a tricky one, but there's lots of them. I can think of a really powerful conversation in a previous role. We had just recently merged with another organization and there was a little bit of distress around that experience because it's hard because change. And it was the first time some of the people had been in circle and there was only a few of us. And I hosted a conversation in circle with a talking piece, with a check-in. And what was revealed was the vulnerability for everyone. And that allowed greater connection. And it was the start of being able to really move forward in our work together because it was important work. So I think that's one of the most powerful workplace experiences I've had with it.
Lisa Leong:
People's normal experience in organizations of meetings are they're potentially time wasters, they're not very effective and we have too many of them in our diaries. So what does The Circle Way offer that meetings seem to have limitations around?
Moze Crozier:
Purpose in the center is the first thing. So for me, it's like I might not be explicit with people that we're meeting in circle and certainly the principles of Circle and the practices of Circle are how I conduct myself in life generally even outside the structure of a meeting. And I think that purpose in the center is the key part of it. It's like only have a meeting if you need to, only have it for as long as you need to, but start well and end well. So that's kind of a few things in there, the principle of purpose in the center and the process I guess around checking in and checking out. And that can be as deep and meaningful as you want, and it can be as data collecting as you want. And I use that in different ways depending on the meeting.
It puts the meeting into a more sacred space, which is a bit of a weird thing to say. Like workplace, what? There's no sacred spaces at work. But actually if our work matters and it's important, then it should be. So if the meeting matters and is important, have it and have it well and have it set up that people can speak what needs to be spoken and that the appropriate actions can be taken from that.
Lisa Leong:
Can you bring to life for me the idea of the check-in?
Moze Crozier:
So the check-in, yeah, so it allows that transition from the sort of more social space into the more formal circle space actually. And that's true whether that's at a self-help circle group or in a workplace meeting, it's like, oh, we have our chat, we're on Zoom. It's like, okay, well how are we going to start this thing? Well sometimes start with bells. So bells are a really key part of the practice. However, for me, I haven't used them because the last organization I worked for was a majority of staff were deaf, so it would've been very inappropriate to use bells. I also am familiar with stories from a friend who works in Canada. She would never use bells because she works with people who've been in residential care and the sound of the bells is triggering. So it's like where appropriate, modify the practices as appropriate.
So the check-in really for me, it transitions from that chat, chat, chat. Who's going to start this show? It can be a bit awkward, particularly I find it really powerful actually on online platforms. It gets that definite start and it's a chance to start the meeting. And what it also does, so the check-in is basically create a virtual circle or you'll be in an inner circle and every person gets to speak to the question that is in the center. And the question might be, sometimes I use it pretty blatantly for data collection, what are your most pressing needs this week? And that sets the agenda for the meeting. Or it might be sensing people are tired, we're a bit exhausted, let's take a pause. Just invite you to check-in with your whole self. How are you doing today? So you might have a question, how are you? What's alive in you? Just depends on the group, the purpose of the meeting and the appropriateness of the questions. So you've got to gauge that each time.
But it allows every person in the room to have a voice. And that's the power of circle is quite often in meetings, people like me who are very articulate and good talkers, we talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, we don't do much listening. So the structure and process of that checking in and checking out is a similar in reverse really enables everyone to have a voice because as you may have experienced, the quietest voices are often the most profound. So it allows that. And the checkout for me then allows that space to hear how was that meaning for people? What are you taking with you, is a classic checkout question and it's a really good gauge of where people are at and what they're taking with them from the meeting.
Lisa Leong:
You mentioned the fact that you were at one point doing the circle without naming it as a circle. So a stealth practice shall we say?
Moze Crozier:
Yeah, absolutely.
Lisa Leong:
What did that look like and why did you choose to do it by stealth?
Moze Crozier:
I'm wary of fundamentalism in any form, even if it's for good, not evil. So I think we can bludgeon people a little bit with things and we can overwhelm them and I think we can also be gentle and kind and bring people in ways that make sense to them. So when I'm with my fellow practitioners, very purist and we follow the rules and we do it all properly. And when I'm in my workplace, I don't start reprimanding people because they talk over someone who's got a talking piece. I just might do some gentle reminders at the next meeting about the purpose of the check-in. So stealth circling can be a way to just engage people where they're at. Sometimes you can't remove the board table.
Lisa Leong:
Well, I was going to say, do you sort of just start moseying along until accidentally everyone's in a circle type of formation?
Moze Crozier:
And that's the thing, so it depends on where the context is. But my old workplace, there was a board table that was never going to be out of the room. So that's not pure circle practice, but we can still do things that contribute to that.
Lisa Leong:
So Moze, what makes The Circle Way circle, even if you happen to be around a rectangular board table?
Moze Crozier:
I think it's the showing up in circle-y ways. So for me it really is the three key principles, and I think these are circle-y ways for life. So it's not just in that meeting space, but the three key principles that speak with intention. So that's great principle for a meeting. Don't ramble on and don't say what's already been said and don't take credit for what someone's already just said. It's like just be really conscious of your words. Be present to the meeting to be conscious enough to speak with intention.
Listen with attention and that I think is one of the hardest practices for all of us. Some people are good at it, that's a big generalization. And that, am I listening to really understand what you're saying or am I listening to confirm my bias and my opinion? And that's actually really hard work. It's like, am I willing to be changed here? So that listening with attention is that being in a spirit of willing to hear something new and to be changed, to actually have your opinion changed.
And then the final one is take care of each other. We take care of the circle. So how we show up here doesn't mean there's not tension and conflict, but it's how we show up in that space. Taking care of each other really matters.
Lisa Leong:
So Christina, let's say I'm doing a first gathering of a new circle. Where do I start?
Christina Baldwin:
Start with a clear intention so you know what the meeting's about. It can be a loosey meeting, it can be let's have a half hour of meeting a whole new team. I mean, that's a fairly loose intention. Or it can be very, very specific. We've just been handed this new project, I want us to sit down and decide who's going to do what. Really, take a look at that. But you need a clear intention.
Then you need probably to say this is going to be an hour, this is going to be an hour and a half. And then to tell people, come to the meeting, here's the prep, so you prep people a little bit, and we're going to do it differently. And what we're going to do is we're going to put the big idea in the middle and then we're all going to talk about how we are related to that big idea.
And at the end of the meeting I just say, check-in, have the conversation, checkout. But at the beginning of the meeting, I love to have people recite, here's why I am here, here's what I need, here's what I have to contribute. And then you do the meeting, everybody checks in with that. At the end of the meeting checkout is, here's whether I got what I needed, here's what I volunteered to do, here was my surprise. Then you're done. Then you can do...
What happens in those meetings is people come alive, they bring their whole selves to a meeting. When the check-in is invited, there are people who are having a really hard day, but they're free to say it. They're free to say, I'm at 70% today and I'm here, but this is about how much you can count on me. Please help me through this.
Lisa Leong:
And with these practices, how have you seen this play out effectively in the many, many workplaces that you've used The Circle Way?
Christina Baldwin:
I would say the thing I have seen is people who really like a top-down style who said, okay, I'll try this, but they were very effective, they thought, and to some extent their teams thought in that kind of I'm at the head of the spear, follow me gang, in them. When they try this, and I'm thinking of one particular healthcare team in a hospital where I watched the director of nursing and she is biting her lips so hard over and over because she's waiting for the talking piece to get to her. And she's like number seven or something. And so she was like, and when it finally gets to her, the first thing she says is, I want you to know I am a much smarter person than I was 20 minutes ago because I couldn't say what came to my mind the first seven times I was listening. That is a huge shift and it releases leadership. Leadership is shared, and it releases leadership into the whole administrative team when somebody who's been that kind of point of the spear leader gets it.
Lisa Leong:
And if I'm a leader listening and I'm thinking about playing around with The Circle Way, where would you suggest I start?
Christina Baldwin:
With other leaders. You literally take this into your peer group and say, what do you think? And especially around in one of the agreements in the circle is that the story belongs to that circle. The stories that come forward are confidential, but the information and data that needs to be lifted into the organization is not confidential. So let's say you get a group of business leaders together and it's an opportunity for them to really talk about what's it like to be you? Is it working to be you? Are you working 20 hours a day? Are you exhausted? What do you need? What if we did something differently? And you could even just try... There's something very powerful when people in positions of leadership are held by that energy of the circle itself where they can tell the truth and feel safe doing that and see what might come out of that hour or might come out of that morning that we want to innovate back into our organizations.
Lisa Leong:
Would you start as open as that, Christina, the intention of that meeting being to see what's there? Or do you think it's good to work on something when you're bringing together leaders from even different organizations?
Christina Baldwin:
I think probably you need to work on something and then you get... I remember doing a circle in Canberra and the people walked in the room and they were the heads of a number of different departments, and we had very carefully set it up and we had a vase with just one beautiful native flower coming out of it in the middle of the room and a little scarf. And this woman walked in, she was from the military and she went, oh God, they're going to want us to be open. And I heard her say that and I thought, okay, so you don't have to go first. But at the end of the day, she was so totally into it and there. So it's like the other thing I would say to people who are going to practice calling in the circle is don't get freaked by a little bit of resistance and just ask somebody, what would make you comfortable here?
Lisa Leong:
I love that. And yeah, I mean, when you walk into a room potentially with chairs in a circle, there is a little bit of the memory around what that looks like and feels like, and it feels a bit like therapy.
Christina Baldwin:
Yeah, it can. So I think putting a little table in the middle is helpful because group therapy it doesn't have anything in the middle. And so if you put something in the middle that at least give people a sense of, oh, this is a little bit different. I remember one group, I can't remember if we wrote about this in the book or not but where the guys walked into the room and they wouldn't even take in the chair. Arms crossed over in the corner going, no way, I'm not sitting down. I'm not sitting in that space.
Lisa Leong:
What did you do then?
Christina Baldwin:
Well, we walked around to them and said, okay, what would make it possible for you to take that chair? We handed everybody a sticky note and said, I want you to write down what you need in order to sit in that chair. And then we put them up on the wall and we talked about them. Nobody sat down, we're all walking around. But it's like we're facilitating from this walking position. It took about an hour and a half, and then they crafted their own agreements before sitting down for how they wanted to be together.
I think that the takeaway points are don't complicate it, because we know how to do this. We come from this and not people go, yeah, I remember I was in kindergarten and I go, no, not that. We come from this. We come from the campfire. So just trust that and that the resistance is really about that invitation. If we do this, it could profoundly change how we are together.
Lisa Leong:
Thanks to my guests, Christina Baldwin.
Christina Baldwin:
Thank you, Lisa.
Lisa Leong:
And Moze Crozier.
Moze Crozier:
Thank you.
Lisa Leong:
I'm Lisa Leong. Thanks for listening to This Working Life. It's produced by Zoe Ferguson and mixed by Kerry Dell. And if you're enjoying the show, please follow us on the ABC listen app, just hit the heart button.
And some very exciting news. We're doing a live podcast event at South by Southwest in Sydney. I'll be hosting an all-star panel to interrogate the concepts of peak performance and high performance teams. It's on Tuesday, the 17th of October. Please come along if you can and follow me on LinkedIn for more information.
This episode was produced on the lands of the Gadigal People of the Eora Nation and the Wurundjeri People of the Kulin Nation. Until next time, work it baby.