In this month’s video story, circle practitioners and The Circle Way board members Diane Jordan, Nancy Fritsche Eagan and Richard Rivera discuss their work hosting race equity circles.

For accessibility, here is the transcription from the video:

Richard: Yeah, I love to call it anti-racism, learning and unlearning, something like that, because it's, to me, it's about shifting consciousness and actions, both individual corporate and organizational and societal, but it's also about unlearning, right. So this idea of unlearning, I'm not sure training covers that, you know.

Nancy: I think it's, really looking at the system like undoing systemic racism, one conversation at a time, one teacher at a time, one circle at a time. This is a long journey. And if people want to get this over with by checking a box, then we're not going to get anywhere. 

Diane: Right. And I think that the opportunity through learning experiences, activities that really give you that “ah-ha” is for people to self-discover “Oh, it's not going to happen overnight. I can't avoid the discomfort. I can't avoid the fear of saying something wrong. I just need to know how to step into it gingerly so that I can reduce and then apologize and be humble or whatever it is. I need to learn some new behaviors.” And I think that's what people have the opportunity to do. So I, I think from the day that George Floyd was murdered, from that day to this, I have been inundated with calls. The difference today in the calls than what had been, what has happened in the past, is that people who are calling are white institutions. So, I will say, white institutions, as well as my friends who are saying, “I never knew, Diane, you've been my friend”. So white friends who say, “I've known you forever. And I still didn't know some of this stuff”. So those, so that's the range of calls. But with regard to the white institutions, I have had more white male leaders calling to say, “I need to have a conversation in my company. I don't want to just do a statement because so many companies did statements. I don't want to do a statement. I want to actually make a difference”. But, and I, and I would always say, okay, so I always say, let's start with a conversation. And then we have to go from conversation to making some of those systemic changes, because there's a reason why you have no Black people in your shareholder group, no Black people in your leadership VP, or your C suite. So let's look at some structural changes and people are open to that. There was a time that you had to encourage people, show data, bring out the McKinsey report and all of those kinds of things to help them see the value. But now they're going, I want to learn, I want to do something different. And I really want to make sure that I am caring for my African American employees. 

Richard: Well, you know, in response to, you know, the Black Lives Matter issue. And, what's been happening beyond George Floyd, before that in New York City there was Eric Garner, “I can't breathe”. And that's what, that's one of the things that inspired me to kind of rethink my consulting practice. I had been doing a lot of different things, but that for me was how do I integrate, you know, I was angry and furious and, there was a rage within me. And the question is, what difference do I want to make in the world with my consulting practice, as a Circle Way practitioner, I started to have these conversations with, the New York Community Trust, which has a program to train nonprofit leaders in New York, in conjunction with one of the graduate schools. And, what I've learned by introducing race conversations by using The Circle Way methodology was that, first it was an uneasy process for a lot of white people in the room. I had one, I had several, but one white woman stands out where she approached me months later and told me, you know, your course was the best, the most exciting course. However, I left with such discomfort and I still have that. And it gave me insights into two things. One is that we needed it to form a learning and unlearning process that went beyond one course. That one course on race compensation, it's not going to do it. And New York Community Trust learned that and has since shifted that to a learning experience. And a second thing was that I had to make sure that in the beginning that it emphasized, that participants were going to experience this comfort and that if we can agree to stay in that discomfort, the place of learning, the place of insight, the place of possible epiphanies, that, it would be a practice that could lifelong, because most people want avoid race conversations. And coming into the situation with me was one of the first times that they had a race conversation with such a diverse group. And so that's one of the things that I was noticing about, about the work.

Diane: Nancy, what are you noticing?

Nancy: Well, I'm noticing that there are more white people coming to the table. I think, you know, there's the, I think younger people, the younger generations are actually more comfortable across race and gender and other, other intersectionalities. So it's an interesting dynamic, in some ways to be led by young people in this, in this movement. And I think white people don't know what to do. And so they are not used to having race conversations. They've never had to really have them and, what's happening with all the, all the, murders that have occurred, and I think this last one, with George Floyd, actually, if you can bear it to watch a video for eight minutes and forty six seconds, it is, it is, it is unbearable. And so if that doesn't get into your soul and motivate you to want to do something, I don't know, I really don't know what will. So, I think that the other thing in our work is to press upon white people, that they have to do this work, that there's a lot of work around racism, the way it's been constructed, it's part of, people are often uncomfortable with the term white supremacy, but the white body, has been, you know, elevated to be better. And it shows up in our laws, et cetera, and how to, how to accept responsibility for undoing racism, for looking at some of the structures. And then, and then some of these terms are getting overused, but I'm still going to use them like the white privilege. There's just no doubt that because of my white skin, I was able to do things with much greater ease and I didn't need to prove myself. And I think the other area that is really important is the issue of microaggressions. And it's those things that we've been used to saying that have been so hurtful to BIPOC people. And, and it's so subtle. We don't even notice we're saying it, but how do we undo some of the harm that just some of the things we've been saying and doing have occurred. So, and I'm finding, I have to do a lot of my own work and keep at it myself as a, as a practitioner. 

Diane: And, you know, I think, I think what you, what both of you are describing are things that happen so easily and subtly because there are, they end up being microaggressions, micro inequities, micro assertions. There are so many micro drip, drip, drop, like, like water torture that can happen. And sometimes you're sitting at a table and someone says something or over-talks you, or, well, it could be so minuscule in that moment, but it's that last drop that takes you over your own edge, that you are going to blow up. And it's literally the straw that breaks the camel's back. So I'm being much more, I'm bringing the conversation of microaggressions and micro inequities into more and more of the conversations I'm having because they, they, they, they happen so suddenly and unconsciously that sometimes you start feeling “like did you really do that on purpose?”. And even if it wasn't done on purpose, I think everybody can increase their level of awareness about them and the negative impact that happens over time when a person is consistently experiencing that, and you could experience it on the road when you're driving, at work, in your home, walking down the street, somebody can say, or give a gesture towards you. And it does, it wears. And sometimes when my white colleagues will ask me, who will tell me they didn't understand how bad it was. It's because they don't understand the drip, drip drop of racism that happens in a person's life every day, all day, last week. And an African American man, obviously everything is virtual, and he actually stood up in the virtual conversation and said, “I want allies, but I don't want an ally that's sitting on the sideline. For me the definition of ally is someone who is in the fight alongside of me, not leading it, not taking all the credit, not stepping out in front, but utilizing their resources, utilizing their advantage, to be able to support someone else and being willing to really understand how to step in that other person's shoes”. And so that really gave me, really cause as you said, I'm constantly learning myself and there are a lot of things out there about what is an ally, but that really helped me to understand ally should be a verb, should not be a noun. An ally is someone actually physically doing something, even making contributions is nice, but to be able to leverage your own advantage is still even greater than that. And the other thing I know that we've been using the term BIPOC and it's very, very popular. I was looking at an article recently. I think it was in a New York Times where they were saying it was there's some people, some African American specifically, are, are against the idea of people of color, because it begins to create this umbrella of sameness. When in point of fact, there are a lot of people of color who may not have the same experiences as African Americans. They may not experienced discrimination, microaggressions, and those kinds of things are in the same way. And this article actually pointed out as an example African immigrants they don't have the experience in America that African Americans have. So they don't, sometimes they're actually, elevated and settings over an African American who was traditionally, you know, born and raised here. So again, I constantly learn and I'm beginning, I'm learning to shift my language as a result of everything that I continue to learn as we go. 

Richard:  And Diane that made me think about a quote from a podcast, an On Being podcast, where Resmaa Menakem, who wrote the book My Grandmother's Hands, he was talking about allies. And he said, you can call yourself an ally, but if you are starting a book club and that's all you want to do, he says, I don't need that. But if you're going to read and learn and challenge yourself and work with me and others and dismantling racism in your community, your circle, then yes, be an ally and do the work. It's so clear. It's about doing work, right, wherever we are, where we stand, people are in different places. So it's about doing the work. 

And in terms of BIPOC, I know that in my experience, I am a Puerto Rican, born in the USA, but my parents are from and I have still have a family in Puerto Rico. And Puerto Ricans are from Afro descendants, Indigenous populations, as well as European colonizers. And so, in my conversations with Puerto Rican colleagues, we agree that, there are different levels of oppressions and colonization and that, we need to, you know, for, for Latinos that next, we need to have our own conversations as well about anti-Black and anti, anti-Black notions within our own culture and our own history as well. So there's some work being done in the Latinx community as well around those issues. 

I'd like to also share that, and, and in the same context of the groups I've been serving for the past couple of years, that there've been, you know, people of color, Black people and Latinx people as well, sharing that they came into the seminar guarded because it said race conversations so they are guarded. And they were guarded because they've had these previous traumatic experiences on race conversations in their jobs, or, you know, with colleagues or with friends. And so, a process of check-in, which is a Circle Way process to check-in with a good question and a dialogic process where people are sharing and talking, and challenging each other and taking pauses, pauses to be silent and to take in the learning, resulted in some of the participants saying I'm still guarded, but I'm less guarded than when I came in. And so the work is ongoing. It's messy. It doesn't get resolved with one seminar, 10 seminars, it's lifelong learning and learning. But people of color, BIPOC people, Black people, Indigenous people, also have this opportunity to learn about healing practices that address the historical trauma in their lives, the intergenerational trauma, and the trauma that's caused of course at work, through the lived experiences. So there's another conversation also besides the anti-racism conversation that white people are having. There's a need also to have this conversation and how do we support each other, what can we learn from each other as, as, Black people, as Indigenous people, or Latinx people, about healing venues for this work and to continue to do this work for, for a lifelong process as well.

Nancy: Yeah, I think, you know, the, when you brought up earlier the use of circle and creating that container, and in The Circle Way we have, agreements we usually work with. And then, when we've done our work together, Rich, in particular a few of our projects, we certainly add in some other agreements that help to make the container and, and actually set expectations. I think some of the most tender conversations, or, you know, it's, or even just sharing, it's not even necessarily conversations. People will just share and the use of the center in circle where people can just say these things and not get involved in cross-talk or an argument, or “that's not true”, but just speaking your truth to the center and letting the center hold that, then we can witness each other's experience, our, our pain and our healing. And it's, you know, it's, it is restorative. And even if you leave a little, I don't know, just with something actually disturbed, it's probably good, but, the, the healing aspect of that, and, and also in some of our work, I love how we integrate movement and singing, you know, Rich, you use drumming a lot in the work. So,  combining all those things, the quotes, like how we run circles is so powerful. And I think that makes such an incredible difference from a traditional, I don't know, learning, experience. 

Diane: Yeah, I agree. One of the things that I've learned, especially in this environment of having to do things virtually is, so, you know, when you have 12 of these Hollywood squares on the screen, it's hard to have a center. But what I do do is I use the agreements as principles for how we will have the conversation. And one of the principles that I think has really, created that sense of, of a container of safety, is, is that there's a, there's a leader in every chair. And that, and because I hold that for myself, I share that with the group so that while I'm facilitating it, I don't want to be considered “the expert” because if there are 50 people on the call, there are 50 experts of their own lived experience that can step up and share something that can impact someone else. So I think those kinds of principles really do help to create that container. I think, the idea of listening, you know, I, you know, I love adding “listen with humanity” because if we can really begin to see each other as human beings, not our demographic definitions, we begin to see each other as human beings, as souls, living souls, then we can begin to see the commonality way beyond whatever is on the surface. Those kinds of ideas, I think, support people being willing to get in and share things; people have told me “I can't believe that I actually shared that story because I was guarded!”. But because, because the environment creates the space and others are sharing also. You look up and people are sharing things that are from their childhood, and ultimately we know that's where so much of this trauma, as Rich, as Rich mentioned, started, but also these ideas that we have about the world. Who should be in our world, how they should do things all start at the knees of our parents, teaching us. 

Richard: I love that love, love those moments in circle when we're passing a talking piece and everything's in slow motion and people are beginning to disclose and share their stories on, their stories in terms of their social identities and their stories of experiences of racism or anti-racism. And, and there's a sacredness, a spirituality about those moments that it's hard to define into words, but they're moments where shifts can take place, and where people are actually deeply listening to each other's souls, deeply listening. And I think if those special moments that frame why circle for me as a partitioner, is so important to use in race conversations. I relish those moments, that are sometimes very difficult and we have to pause. And so when people, sometimes people are crying and struggling with issues and we pause.  The key is to allow for, for me, is to allow for grace to take place, to allow the group to understand that no one has it. There's no perfect participant, right. We're all learning together. And people are in different places in their journey around this knowledge and this experience. And so giving grace to each other, right, at that point, allowing people to just, yeah, take it in and not be so like, “Oh, Oh my God, there she goes again with that word” or what, you know. and so the idea is if we can build those kinds of relationships and face each other and those difficult circumstances, that's a practice. And it just can't be one day, one workshop, is it's gotta be an ongoing practice. James Baldwin says “Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced”. And so circle provides this opportunity for us to face each other, right. And to grapple as imperfect human beings who are white, and non-white and BIPOC and whateve initials we use, and experiences we bring circle and grapple with the realities of a system that has embedded all these thoughts of racism within our culture and our beings. And so I think, you know, too, to use the, kind of Latinx word in our culture, there's some times we talk about us cleansing, a spiritual cleansing, un despacho and that release that takes place because we are being honest and struggling with the pain and the suffering, but at the same time, not avoiding each other, but facing, facing the issues, internal within ourselves, facing ourselves, but also facing the colleagues in the room as well. 

Nancy: Yeah. I think, I think, I think of one time I will never forget it where we were hosting, this work and in, in New York and we had a very large group and it was very, spiritual for me because at the end, we, it was very interesting. We had a very mixed group in terms of race, gender, social identities, and, a white woman got up and started playing like a piano piece that was more classical. And then an African American woman got up and started, kind of a movement and dancing piece. And in total silence, she asked all of us to write a message to each other as the closing of this circle. And then we all stood and we use the, you know, the hashtag, and the, and the hashtag at the end of this session, the hashtags I saw were “we can do this”, “I have hope” this, “I have more courage”. This can, “we have to do something” and this, and I am having chills now, just speaking about it. But I felt like I, it was like a glimpse of the future. It's like, we're, co-creating the future in every one of these, circles where we can, yeah bear witness to each other. And the other piece of it is it builds courage, but it moves us to action. 

Richard: Yes, yes. Yeah. I like to mention a little bit about, the challenge. It is, it is a complex subject and it's a complex world and people are walking into our rooms with an intersectionality, dimensions, several dimensions. And so I think, while we always try to emphasize centering, centering racism as the conversation, placing it in the center, and anti-racism, there is, and it's a intersectional lens that we have to continue to be aware of, and that there are different levels of oppression in the room, experience of oppression. And, you know, as the balance of keeping race at the center, right cause that's the foundational conversation that we're having, but also respecting the, intersectionality of the participants in the room. So for me, it's always a balance because I don't know, people want to talk about so many wonderful, important issues in their eyes. Cause they're not, they're human beings. They're very complex, and, and there's a time when we do talk about that, but, the challenge many for me, as well as some other facilitators is, is centering race, making sure that we stay true to the conversation around race, and not gear off from that conversation. And, and once we have that foundation, we can then address these other, you know, other dimensions or intersectionalities as well. 

Diane: I think that is really important. Rich. I was called yesterday actually to facilitate a conversation. And we haven't decided what we're going to call it, but I think Bridge-building or Be the Bridge or something like that. A conversation between millennial African Americans and boomer African-Americans because we see the struggle differently. We experience the struggle differently. And what, the client is asking, what the client is experiencing is that within their company, African Americans tend to, because, you know, they either came through the civil rights movement or, experienced the results of it. And so a slow and steady pace of change is comfortable for them. You know, we can travel the water, but we don't want to stir the water and mess the water up. These young people are like we goin’ to drain this! We'll go pull the plug out of the water! And they're saying, they're literally saying I want to come to work with my locs. I want to come to work with my cornrows. I want to come to work with whatever I want to wear. I want to be me. I want to come to work with my authentic self and that can create tension among the same group of people, because at the intersection, as you're describing Rich, that generational difference is kind of like, you know, a big divide. And so we have, we're going to figure out how to have that conversation. And, I'll keep you all posted as to how it turns out, because it really is seeing things from two completely different ends of the spectrum. And they're both a lived experience. They're both lived experience. And so we'll, we'll kinda, I might need to call both of you for reinforcements!

Richard: Historically it makes me think historically of it's DC and Martin Luther King is giving his speech and he's talking about long-term. I have a dream. And then John Lewis comes up and says, We need change now. He was young, he was young then. No no we need change like right now. It's that generational difference that we're always going to be addressing in our work and in our society. And we need it. I love the tensions. I love the tensions. 

Nancy: We talked about the notion of a race equity guardian. So we use a guardian in circle and how someone can, prepare themselves enough that they are attuned to some of the nuances and being able to identify, dynamics or harm that may be occurring and be able to call that out so that the emotional labor isn't always being done by a person of color or someone who's feeling very vulnerable. So that's a piece I think we should think about.  

Diane: I love that idea. 

Richard: Yeah. it makes me think about why it's also important and why it's helpful to do this work with mates and colleagues. There's so much to be learned and I'm in, I'm in the learning process, always myself. And I remember there was one point, when I was doing some work, it was a circle summit and, there was a participant, a woman of color, and she was angry. Something had happened at, at the table, but, she was like really openly angry. And personally I saw that like a disturbance, you know, like, no, we gotta keep on. And my colleague, my younger colleague Chantilly Mers-Pickett, who was facilitating with me said “Rich we don't need tone policing right now. It's just, you got to let this be, we got to figure it out”. And it was so good to have her voice put me in check, right, and say, she's angry about something. Something happened at that table. And it has to do with racism and people need to express their anger into this room. If they can't do that, then why are we here. So that's another lesson learned about tone policing as facilitators, that they're going to be people that are very angry and that we need to explore, that anger and that rage that is a result of trauma and racism over, and repeating these conversations over and over again. 

Nancy: We're swimming in the water of white supremacy, and this is going to come up even in our work with each other, and, and like, that's, you know, we have to take it on and learn from it, but it's, there's a lot of learning edges for all of us doing circle around race conversations. 

Diane: You know, I think my, my hashtag is going to be, “I dwell in possibilities”. Cause all things are possible. 

Richard: Hashtag: James Baldwin, nothing can be changed until it's faced 

Nancy: Hashtag: I'm in it for the rest of my life. 

Diane S Jordan has more than 20 years of executive leadership and management consulting experience in nonprofit, profit, and healthcare sectors. She is an award-winning leader in organization and professional development, change management, executive coaching, employee relations, diversity and inclusion. As a facilitator, she designs and delivers content and techniques to engage small and large groups in problem solving, decision-making, promoting and creating energy. She inspires individuals and teams to lead from aspiration, increase accountability and decision-making, and deliver sustainable results. 

Diane’s desire to make a difference in the world took her on a journey that led her to historic and culturally rich Liberia West Africa. There she owned a business, served as midwife, volunteered with World Health Organization, and witnessed the coup d'état. 

Richard Rivera is President of Renew & Redesign Consulting an organizational consulting firm, specializing in organizational change/transformation, strategic development and human resource training for nonprofit, government, and healthcare organizations. As a Circle Way practitioner, Richard integrates The Circle Way methodology into all dimensions of his consulting work. Mr. Rivera’s expertise includes specialized services around racial equity, leadership development, executive coaching, strategic development, board development, team building, employee engagement, and organizational assessments.

Richard is a global steward of the Art of Hosting Conversations that Matter and has facilitated these trainings at the NYU Wagner School, the Baruch Graduate School of Public Affairs, the Center for Social Innovation and numerous child welfare and school programs in NYC. Mr. Rivera currently serves as lead consultant for the Baruch Graduate School of Public Affairs, Executive Programs. At the Adelphi University School of Social Work, Mr. Rivera serves as an organizational change strategic plan consultant and executive coach. He also served as coach/facilitator for Columbia University’s Management Development Program.  As a member of the Drucker Foundation’s “Organizational Assessment Tool” team, Richard has conducted presentations to board and executive leaders across the nation. Mr. Rivera received his M.S.W. degree from Columbia University, School of Social Work. 

Nancy Fritsche Eagan is founder and President of People Potential and has provided consultation and training services to public and social sector organizations for over 20 years. She applies her direct services and management experiences in government and the social sector to her work. She is a specialist in change strategies, relationship and community building, leadership development and project management.  Nancy designs meetings to foster meaningful conversations in support of collaborative and inclusive processes. Nancy is known for her ability to create and customize services and interventions that are suited to the needs of each organization.